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Boats > Paddle Boats > Re: Why the Law...
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Re: Why the Law of the Sea has to be the Law of the Jungle?

by Morten Reistad <first@[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Aug 19, 2008 at 09:25 PM

In article <wDZok.10205$kh2.9381@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>,
Lee Bell <pleebell2@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote:
>ComandanteBanana wrote
>
>> Well, I'm not going to speak in defense of the sardine in their
>> eternal quest to survive the big fish...
>
>Glad to hear it since you do not appear to be competent to defend your 
>position on the issues you did address.
>
>> The issue here is, WHY A KAYAK OR CANOE MUST GIVE THE RIGHT OF
>> WAY TO THE MOTORBOATS?
>
>Here is is in a nutshell.  It's called "The Rule of Tonage."  I outweigh
you 
>by . . . well, by a lot of times.  In an encounter between my boat and 
>yours, yours, and you, will be crushed.  If you aren't, you'll be turned 
>into hamburger, or fish chum if you prefer, by the propellers on the
back, 
>that are turned, slow or fast, by more than 300 horsepower each.  It's
call 
>survival.  Ignoring it is commonly referred to as testing Darwin's
theory. 
>They have awards, issued poshumously, for thost that do.
>
>Other than that, here's another anwer.  You don't have to give right of
way. 
>Generally speaking, non powered vessels, operated with a bit of common 
>sense, have the right of way over powered ones.

With modifications. 

If you are in a defined VTC area the vessels in the "motorway" have
right of way to anything crossing. These are clearly marked on any
chart. Dates from the Copenhagen protocol of 1859, with later extensions.
Flag states have authority over the VTC, even in international waters.
(Was never ratified by the confederate states, though).

The VTC operator is king. Listen to VHF on the VTC channels to get
updates. 

Ferries and other officially scheduled traffic comes next. 

Then there are three conflicting sets of rules.

1) The  "seaman****p" rules.

   * Everyone yield for special signs, like dive flag, trawler, etc.
   * Planes under landing and takeoff have next right of way.
   * Overtaking boat yields for the overtaken.
   * Propelled (including rowboats) yield for sailboats and planes.
   * Planes yield for sail (until Jun 1st 2006 this was the other way
around)
   * Engine yield for non-engine
   * Sailboats with the wind from ****t yield for other sailboats with the
     wind from Starboard.
   * Sailboats yield for other sailboats with a higher angle into the
wind.

2) The "useful" rules.
  
   * Boats carrying payload have first rights.
   * More payload => more right of way
   * You shall not disturb a vessel that cannot manouver as well as you
can.

3) Biggest carries the day.

   * I am bigger than you are.

Interesting point is that you must yield for planes, even if they
are overtaking. With sea planes it can be hard to distinguish the
transition from plane to vessel some times.

As of June 1st 2006, military or SAR vessels with blinking blue
lights have first priority over all.

>> Every weekend the intracostal waterway of Miami becomes a parade of
>> motorboats of all sorts, from the very big (the owners of this town)
>> to the very small (the noisy jet skis), often driven by intoxicated
>> drivers (I guess you call them "drivers," though seldom they are
>> accountable to the standards as vehicle drivers, like DUI), and almost
>> always running (or should I say "flying"?) up and down (again, with no
>> speed limit restrictions like regular drivers). So the task of
>> crossing these sea highways by paddle becomes something like a duck
>> crossing the hunting grounds, and you are the sitting duck...

But, if convicted of wrongdoing they can have the book thrown at them.
DUI, reckless driving, endangering ****p traffic, violations of a score
of SOLAS regulations etc. We have a couple of cases each year where
skippers end up with a year or more of hard time.

>They're called Captains or pilots, not drivers.  If they intoxicated,
re****t 
>them.  There are, in fact, laws controlling that very much like those for

>automobile driers.  There are speed limits posted all over the place and 
>quite a few that apply even when not posted.  On top of it all, there are

>maximum wake and other requirements you've not bothered to notice.
>
>Crossing the channel, whether by paddle or by motorboat, is a lot like 
>crossing any other highway.  You would be ill advised to pull out right
in 
>front of a boat operated by a captain with more knowledge and experience 
>than your appear to have, operating at a legal speed, not intoxicated,
just 
>like you would be ill advised to push your skateboard out in front of 
>traffic traveling at the speed limit on I-95.  You're the one entering
the 
>channel.  You're the one responsible for doing it safely.  Imagine that.

Big difference between VTC and non-VTC areas. VTC is more like a
runway for planes. You really _should_ listen to the traffic controller, 
even in a canoe. Especially in a canoe.

We have done many dives in VTC areas; they are usually very cooperative, 
and we have to follow a given timeslot, and re****t in as all other VTC
parties do. 

>> But the ocean is also hunting ground. The other day (it was weekday,
>> hardly any boats out there), I went to out in my tandem kayak, which I
>> chose as bright as it could be (sunrise) with the paddles to match
>> (they could be more visible than the kayak itself), and out of nowhere
>> came this boat that passed us right in front, so much so that my
>> partner stopped paddling. The ocean was absolutely flat and it was a
>> nice sunny day, so the driver must have chosen to make it a close
>> call...
>
>You don't know that at all.  There are rules for who has the right of way
on 
>the ocean as well.  Have you bothered to research them?
>
>While it is possible that the boater chose to make it a close call,
that's 
>not certain at all, particularly if he did not change course.  For all
you 
>know, he would have been on autopilot or, possibly, following a GPS
course 
>from one point to the next.  Your assumption that he chose to bother you
is 
>a bit off the mark.

I can confirm than going off autopilot is a definate hassle. If he
was following a marked sea lane he would probably think of you as a
nuisance; and have the law on his side.

>I will grant you that it would have been nice for him to give you a bit
more 
>room.  I make a habit of doing that for vessels small enough that going 
>behind them, through their wake, is not a problem while forcing them to
go 
>through mine might be.  On the other hand, if you were paddling into his 
>path, you also had the option to give yourself more room.

Also, signal your intensions by making course adjustments if you have to,
and do it early. BTW, the really large vessels run anti-collision systems,

and have to log collision alarms. If they behave like a**h*les you can 
buzz them a little by triggering those alarms. You can do so at a safe 
distance, you just need to set a colliding course, and stay there for
a minute or two. The radar and anti-collision systems will pick you up.

-- mrr
 




 120 Posts in Topic:
Why the Law of the Sea has to be the Law of the Jungle?
ComandanteBanana <noli  2008-08-14 08:25:47 
Re: Why the Law of the Sea has to be the Law of the Jungle?
"Lee Bell" <  2008-08-14 13:09:41 
Re: Why the Law of the Sea has to be the Law of the Jungle?
Morten Reistad <first@  2008-08-19 21:25:07 
Re: Why the Law of the Sea has to be the Law of the Jungle?
Morten Reistad <first@  2008-08-19 21:25:07 
Re: Why the Law of the Sea has to be the Law of the Jungle?
KingOfTheApes <comanda  2008-08-14 11:30:59 
Re: Why the Law of the Sea has to be the Law of the Jungle?
Galen Hekhuis <ghekhui  2008-08-14 14:53:20 
Re: Why the Law of the Sea has to be the Law of the Jungle?
"Lee Bell" <  2008-08-14 20:39:00 
Re: Why the Law of the Sea has to be the Law of the Jungle?
Galen Hekhuis <ghekhui  2008-08-14 14:53:20 
Re: Why the Law of the Sea has to be the Law of the Jungle?
"Lee Bell" <  2008-08-14 20:39:00 
Re: might makes right
KingOfTheApes <comanda  2008-08-14 12:02:26 
Re: might makes right
"Lee Bell" <  2008-08-14 20:40:46 
Re: might makes right
"Lee Bell" <  2008-08-14 20:40:46 
Re: Why the Law of the Sea has to be the Law of the Jungle?
KingOfTheApes <comanda  2008-08-14 12:13:17 
Re: Why the Law of the Sea has to be the Law of the Jungle?
"Lee Bell" <  2008-08-14 20:46:02 
Re: Why the Law of the Sea has to be the Law of the Jungle?
"Lee Bell" <  2008-08-14 20:46:02 
Re: Why the Law of the Sea has to be the Law of the Jungle?
Two meter troll <eawis  2008-08-15 00:20:29 
Re: Why the Law of the Sea has to be the Law of the Jungle?
ComandanteBanana <noli  2008-08-15 07:21:13 
Re: Why the Law of the Sea has to be the Law of the Jungle?
Two meter troll <eawis  2008-08-15 09:12:16 
Re: Why the Law of the Sea has to be the Law of the Jungle?
Morten Reistad <first@  2008-08-19 21:43:39 
Re: Why the Law of the Sea has to be the Law of the Jungle?
Morten Reistad <first@  2008-08-19 21:43:39 
Re: Why the Law of the Sea has to be the Law of the Jungle?
ComandanteBanana <noli  2008-08-15 10:44:23 
Re: Why the Law of the Sea has to be the Law of the Jungle?
"Lee Bell" <  2008-08-15 18:36:42 
Re: Why the Law of the Sea has to be the Law of the Jungle?
"Lee Bell" <  2008-08-15 18:36:42 
Re: Why the Law of the Sea has to be the Law of the Jungle?
ComandanteBanana <noli  2008-08-15 16:23:20 
Re: Why the Law of the Sea has to be the Law of the Jungle?
Two meter troll <eawis  2008-08-15 16:38:32 
Re: WHO'S LIABLE IF I DO GET HIT?
KingOfTheApes <comanda  2008-08-20 10:36:09 
Re: WHO'S LIABLE IF I DO GET HIT?
"cramersec@[EMAIL PR  2008-08-21 08:18:29 
Re: WHO'S LIABLE IF I DO GET HIT?
KingOfTheApes <comanda  2008-08-21 09:00:58 
Re: WHO'S LIABLE IF I DO GET HIT?
Steve Hix <sehix@[EMAI  2008-08-21 11:10:01 
Re: WHO'S LIABLE IF I DO GET HIT?
Steve Hix <sehix@[EMAI  2008-08-21 11:10:01 
Re: WHO'S LIABLE IF I DO GET HIT?
Steve Cramer <cramerse  2008-08-24 18:11:48 
Re: Why the Law of the Sea has to be the Law of the Jungle?
KingOfTheApes <comanda  2008-08-21 09:11:32 
Re: Why the Law of the Sea has to be the Law of the Jungle?
Morten Reistad <first@  2008-08-24 12:28:11 
Re: Why the Law of the Sea has to be the Law of the Jungle?
Morten Reistad <first@  2008-08-24 12:28:11 
Re: fast motorboats sound to me like WMDs
KingOfTheApes <comanda  2008-08-22 08:40:50 
Re: fast motorboats sound to me like WMDs
"Lee Bell" <  2008-08-22 12:39:06 
Re: fast motorboats sound to me like WMDs
"Lee Bell" <  2008-08-22 12:39:06 
Re: how best to survive out there
KingOfTheApes <comanda  2008-08-22 09:17:24 
Re: how best to survive out there
"Lee Bell" <  2008-08-22 12:37:46 
Re: how best to survive out there
Chicago Paddling-Fishing   2008-08-22 17:26:47 
Re: how best to survive out there
Chicago Paddling-Fishing   2008-08-22 17:26:47 
Re: how best to survive out there
"Lee Bell" <  2008-08-22 12:37:46 
Re: WHO'S LIABLE IF I DO GET HIT?
KingOfTheApes <comanda  2008-08-22 09:31:15 
Re: WHO'S LIABLE IF I DO GET HIT?
"Lee Bell" <  2008-08-22 15:58:28 
Re: WHO'S LIABLE IF I DO GET HIT?
"Lee Bell" <  2008-08-22 15:58:28 
Re: WHO'S LIABLE IF I DO GET HIT?
KingOfTheApes <comanda  2008-08-22 12:36:20 
Re: WHO'S LIABLE IF I DO GET HIT?
"Lee Bell" <  2008-08-22 16:08:41 
Re: WHO'S LIABLE IF I DO GET HIT?
Morten Reistad <first@  2008-08-24 12:35:41 
Re: WHO'S LIABLE IF I DO GET HIT?
"Lee Bell" <  2008-08-22 16:08:41 
Re: WHO'S LIABLE IF I DO GET HIT?
Morten Reistad <first@  2008-08-24 12:35:41 
Re: WHO'S LIABLE IF I DO GET HIT?
KingOfTheApes <comanda  2008-08-23 07:40:43 
Re: WHO'S LIABLE IF I DO GET HIT?
"Lee Bell" <  2008-08-23 17:57:20 
Re: WHO'S LIABLE IF I DO GET HIT?
"Lee Bell" <  2008-08-23 17:57:20 
Re: WHO'S LIABLE IF I DO GET HIT?
KingOfTheApes <comanda  2008-08-23 08:21:32 
Re: WHO'S LIABLE IF I DO GET HIT?
"Lee Bell" <  2008-08-23 18:06:46 
Re: WHO'S LIABLE IF I DO GET HIT?
Morten Reistad <first@  2008-08-24 13:07:19 
Re: WHO'S LIABLE IF I DO GET HIT?
"Lee Bell" <  2008-08-23 18:06:46 
Re: WHO'S LIABLE IF I DO GET HIT?
Morten Reistad <first@  2008-08-24 13:07:19 
Re: WHO'S LIABLE IF I DO GET HIT?
-hh <recscuba_google@[  2008-08-23 13:39:28 
Re: WHO'S LIABLE IF I DO GET HIT?
Morten Reistad <first@  2008-08-24 12:48:50 
Re: WHO'S LIABLE IF I DO GET HIT?
Morten Reistad <first@  2008-08-24 12:48:50 
Re: WHO'S LIABLE IF I DO GET HIT?
-hh <recscuba_google@[  2008-08-24 05:19:32 
Re: WHO'S LIABLE IF I DO GET HIT?
Morten Reistad <first@  2008-08-26 00:07:46 
Re: Why the Law of the Sea has to be the Law of the Jungle?
"Lee Bell" <  2008-08-14 13:09:41 
Re: Why the Law of the Sea has to be the Law of the Jungle?
KingOfTheApes <comanda  2008-08-14 11:30:59 
Re: might makes right
KingOfTheApes <comanda  2008-08-14 12:02:26 
Re: Why the Law of the Sea has to be the Law of the Jungle?
KingOfTheApes <comanda  2008-08-14 12:13:17 
Re: Why the Law of the Sea has to be the Law of the Jungle?
Two meter troll <eawis  2008-08-15 00:20:29 
Re: Why the Law of the Sea has to be the Law of the Jungle?
ComandanteBanana <noli  2008-08-15 07:21:13 
Re: Why the Law of the Sea has to be the Law of the Jungle?
Two meter troll <eawis  2008-08-15 09:12:16 
Re: Why the Law of the Sea has to be the Law of the Jungle?
ComandanteBanana <noli  2008-08-15 10:44:23 
Re: Why the Law of the Sea has to be the Law of the Jungle?
ComandanteBanana <noli  2008-08-15 16:23:20 
Re: Why the Law of the Sea has to be the Law of the Jungle?
Two meter troll <eawis  2008-08-15 16:38:32 
Re: WHO'S LIABLE IF I DO GET HIT?
KingOfTheApes <comanda  2008-08-20 10:36:09 
Re: WHO'S LIABLE IF I DO GET HIT?
"cramersec@[EMAIL PR  2008-08-21 08:18:29 
Re: WHO'S LIABLE IF I DO GET HIT?
KingOfTheApes <comanda  2008-08-21 09:00:58 
Re: Why the Law of the Sea has to be the Law of the Jungle?
KingOfTheApes <comanda  2008-08-21 09:11:32 
Re: fast motorboats sound to me like WMDs
KingOfTheApes <comanda  2008-08-22 08:40:50 
Re: how best to survive out there
KingOfTheApes <comanda  2008-08-22 09:17:24 
Re: WHO'S LIABLE IF I DO GET HIT?
KingOfTheApes <comanda  2008-08-22 09:31:15 
Re: WHO'S LIABLE IF I DO GET HIT?
KingOfTheApes <comanda  2008-08-22 12:36:20 
Re: WHO'S LIABLE IF I DO GET HIT?
KingOfTheApes <comanda  2008-08-23 07:40:43 
Re: WHO'S LIABLE IF I DO GET HIT?
KingOfTheApes <comanda  2008-08-23 08:21:32 
Re: WHO'S LIABLE IF I DO GET HIT?
-hh <recscuba_google@[  2008-08-23 13:39:28 
Re: WHO'S LIABLE IF I DO GET HIT?
-hh <recscuba_google@[  2008-08-24 05:19:32 
Re: Why the Law of the Sea has to be the Law of the Jungle?
ComandanteBanana <noli  2008-08-24 08:21:25 
Re: WHO'S LIABLE IF I DO GET HIT?
ComandanteBanana <noli  2008-08-24 08:47:16 
Re: WHO'S LIABLE IF I DO GET HIT?
ComandanteBanana <noli  2008-08-24 09:01:22 
Re: WHO'S LIABLE IF I DO GET HIT?
ComandanteBanana <noli  2008-08-24 09:06:47 
Re: WHO'S LIABLE IF I DO GET HIT?
log_dog@[EMAIL PROTECTED]  2008-08-24 20:42:30 
Re: WHO'S LIABLE IF I DO GET HIT?
KingOfTheApes <comanda  2008-08-25 06:51:30 
Re: WHO'S LIABLE IF I DO GET HIT?
KingOfTheApes <comanda  2008-08-25 06:52:43 
Re: WHO'S LIABLE IF I DO GET HIT?
-hh <recscuba_google@[  2008-08-25 13:52:22 
Re: WHO'S LIABLE IF I DO GET HIT?
log_dog@[EMAIL PROTECTED]  2008-08-27 23:38:52 
Re: WHO'S LIABLE IF I DO GET HIT?
Galen Hekhuis <ghekhui  2008-08-27 19:53:55 
Re: WHO'S LIABLE IF I DO GET HIT?
"Lee Bell" <  2008-08-27 20:39:16 
Re: WHO'S LIABLE IF I DO GET HIT?
"Lee Bell" <  2008-08-27 20:37:15 
Re: WHO'S LIABLE IF I DO GET HIT?
log_dog@[EMAIL PROTECTED]  2008-08-29 13:43:04 
Re: WHO'S LIABLE IF I DO GET HIT?
"Lee Bell" <  2008-09-02 05:40:24 
Re: WHO'S LIABLE IF I DO GET HIT?
KingOfTheApes <comanda  2008-08-25 17:19:41 
Re: WHO'S LIABLE IF I DO GET HIT?
log_dog@[EMAIL PROTECTED]  2008-08-27 23:43:20 
Re: WHO'S LIABLE IF I DO GET HIT?
"Lee Bell" <  2008-08-27 20:38:13 
Re: WHO'S LIABLE IF I DO GET HIT?
KingOfTheApes <comanda  2008-08-25 17:29:38 
Re: WHO'S LIABLE IF I DO GET HIT?
-hh <recscuba_google@[  2008-08-25 17:51:31 
Re: WHO'S LIABLE IF I DO GET HIT?
Greg Mossman <mossman@  2008-08-25 18:48:04 
Re: A civilized society cannot let the law of the jungle rule it
ComandanteBanana <noli  2008-08-26 07:51:35 
Re: A civilized society cannot let the law of the jungle rule it
log_dog@[EMAIL PROTECTED]  2008-08-27 23:46:46 
Re: A civilized society cannot let the law of the jungle rule it
"Lee Bell" <  2008-08-27 20:35:09 
Re: WHO'S LIABLE IF I DO GET HIT?
-hh <recscuba_google@[  2008-08-28 03:00:37 
Re: WHO'S LIABLE IF I DO GET HIT?
"Lee Bell" <  2008-08-28 08:28:08 
Re: WHO'S LIABLE IF I DO GET HIT?
-hh <recscuba_google@[  2008-08-28 03:34:58 
Re: WHO'S LIABLE IF I DO GET HIT?
"Lee Bell" <  2008-08-28 08:40:40 
Re: WHO'S LIABLE IF I DO GET HIT?
Two meter troll <eawis  2008-08-30 10:53:54 
Re: Why the Law of the Sea has to be the Law of the Jungle?
dweebgs@[EMAIL PROTECTED]  2008-09-02 19:00:29 
Re: Why the Law of the Sea has to be the Law of the Jungle?
"Lee Bell" <  2008-09-03 06:13:45 
Re: WHO'S LIABLE IF I DO GET HIT?
ComandanteBanana <noli  2008-09-03 07:31:49 
Re: WHO'S LIABLE IF I DO GET HIT?
"Lee Bell" <  2008-09-03 10:52:09 
Re: WHO'S LIABLE IF I DO GET HIT?
ComandanteBanana <noli  2008-09-03 12:20:24 
Re: Why the Law of the Sea has to be the Law of the Jungle?
"Patrick, Whit"  2008-09-25 10:22:54 
Re: Why the Law of the Sea has to be the Law of the Jungle?
Two meter troll <eawis  2008-09-26 01:46:17 

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tan12V112 Tue Dec 2 15:02:18 CST 2008.